Abortion

[-Kevin-]

4 Months Old

I’m 4 months old today Mum

Happy birthday to me

I’ve got my ears, nose and eyes

So I’ll be able to hear smell and see

Where are we going today Mum?

Is it somewhere special to celebrate?

I’m bouncing up and down Mum

You’re walking in a fast gait

This is nice, just you and me Mum.

Are you looking forward to the day of my birth?

We’re going to have so much fun together Mum.

I can’t wait for my arrival on earth

Why are you crying Mum?

I can feel your body shaking though I cannot see your tears

Please don’t be sad Mum

My date of birth will soon be near

Whose voices do I hear Mum?

They sound uncaring and mean

What’s that beeping noise Mum?

Why do they have that big screen?

What’s this silver thing Mum?

Why’s it poking my little heart?

Tell them to stop, help me Mum!

They’re tearing me apart

Stop them Mum, come on I need your help

Mum it’s hurting me

What’s happening here Mum?

Why won’t they let me be?

Where are you Mum, where are you?

Why can’t I hear your voice?

Why were we brought here Mum?

Surely it wasn’t your choice!

My life is slowly dying Mum

I love you Mum believe me I do

I’m sorry we’ll never get to meet Mum

But the worst thing is I thought you loved me too.

Now that is simply heartbreaking. Brings a tear to my eye.

[Jess]

What are your views on abortion?

Another thing is where the baby is deformed or will be born with a syndrome, such as Down. Why bring a person like that out into the world, to drain our Disability and respite sources, which will need someone to look after them for the rest of their lives? And who takes over after the parents pass on? The siblings, who have their lives changes because of their PARENTS' decision? An institution? If you give birth to a child knowing full well that child will need care for their entire lives, then pay for it yourself, 100%, I say. Don't use welfare or Disability or respite. After all, you had the CHOICE. Why should the taxpayer pay for your choice? Why should their siblings have to sacrifice their lives to take up the burden once you have passed?

As a disabled person, I'm pretty shocked that people still have these views in the twenty-first century. So you're basically saying that I don't have the right to live. Well, okay, I do, but I have to struggle on in silence so as not to take taxpayers' money? I presume this would also apply to people who drink, smoke, self-harm and people who come into the country from abroad? Or any other circumstance where the situation could've, hypothetically, been avoided.

I'm totally lost for words.

[charmed60]

Another thing is where the baby is deformed or will be born with a syndrome, such as Down. Why bring a person like that out into the world, to drain our Disability and respite sources, which will need someone to look after them for the rest of their lives? Why should the taxpayer pay for your choice? Why should their siblings have to sacrifice their lives to take up the burden once you have passed?

I to am really shocked by your comments here. Your views on abortion are obviously really strong and you have a right to that but stating that people with a disability shouldn't be allowed to live due to "draining the taxpayers money" is a really shocking statement to make and one I wholeheartedly disagree with. Whilst living with a disability or living with someone with a disability may make daily life more difficult it doesn't mean to say that a disabled person is a "burden" on people around them and should therefore be aborted before birth. Whilst I may not be disabled myself I have a very close friend to me who is disabled, who is an amazing person and I wouldn't change who she is for the world. People suffering with Downs Syndrome, whilst possibly needing extra support are still able to live their lives, some totally independently and are still loved the same as any other person by the people around them.

As Jess said that same rule could apply to the thousands of people who are treated in hospitals every year for self inflicted injuries, does that mean to say they should be left to suffer??

Plus I was going to resist but I wanted to point out that fetus's DO look like 'real babies' before the age of 20 weeks gestation as their outer body develops straight away while all of their internal organs develop in the later stages. A friend of mine who works in the profession witness a fetus who was miscarried at around 15-17 weeks and she said it looked like a fully formed baby.

Although so as not to offend anyone, I'd like to point out that while I don't believe I could consider abortion myself, I wouldn't judge others for going through with one.

[Jess]

I'm aware that my views are probably gonna come across as quite hardcore and, of course, I respect the other opinions in this thread, but I have to say that I disagree with the majority of them.

I think that if you're gonna have sex, then you have to be mature enough to deal with the possible consequences - a baby. And, in my book, that doesn't mean killing it. It's not like we live in some dark time, where contraception isn't freely available. Family planning clinics virtually throw the things at you. Between that and the pill, the chances of getting pregnant are virtually nothing. Of course accidents happen, but that's hardly the child's fault.

In cases such as rape, too, I don't really believe it's a viable option, either. As Symphony, I think, said, how can you condemn abortion for one reason, but condone it for another? I'm not saying that rape isn't a truly horrible experience (and one that I'll hopefully never have to bear), but abortion isn't just like taking a pair of jeans back to a shop because they don't fit. It can have a lasting mental, physical and emotional effect on the mother. So, really, I think it'd have to be a pretty awful pregnancy for it to even be comparable with the pain of having your child killed while it's inside of you. And, okay, people say that the child'll be a permanent reminder, but that doesn't have to be an entirely negative thing. Children are the most precious gifts in the world, and being born out of a bad situation doesn't make a mother's love for them any less.

According to this website, only 1% of all abortions in the US are because of rape or incest, 6% because of health reasons and the remainder because the child is inconvenient. This is the major problem I have with abortion. So many people use rape as the exception to the rule, but it accounts for such a small amount of terminations statistically, and yet thousands of procedures (almost 194,000 in England and Wales in 2006) are carried out every year. Even though abortion clinics are so available, too, over a third of all abortions in '06 were carried out between ten and twenty weeks gestation - when the foetus is beginning to resemble a "real" baby.

I'm not saying I would want it to be made illegal - backstreet abortions are so dangerous - but ethically I don't agree with them. No one gets away with killing a ten year-old boy, so why should anyone be allowed to kill a ten week-old foetus?

I'm sorry if I've come across as being overly passionate about this, or offended anyone - it's just a subject that's very close to my heart.

Firstly, it is NOT a 'child'! It is a nothing. A parasite attached to the host (mother), a clump of cells. Harsh, but its the cold hard fact. It is no more a 'child' than a sperm is, or blood on a sanitary pad is.

Being pregnant because of a rape means carrying a bad seed around and I find it absolutely horrific that anyone could even suggest that a person who was raped, would 'adjust' to seeing the 'likeness' in the born baby. That is callous and cruel. Women who say that, sorry, but I feel they betray their own sisterhood. Thats my opinion. A woman who has been raped would NOT want to keep the foetus. Thats common sense. And its easy for someone who has never been raped, to say such a ridiculous and horrifically ignorant and insensitive thing. To keep a bad seed that was the result of rape, is simply not something a normal woman would do.

Lastly, please don't quote from, and be fooled by 'abortionno' propaganda sites, full of LIES. A foetus definitely does NOT 'resemble a 'real' baby' until 20 + weeks. And many people don't even know they're pregnant until the second month 8-10 weeks. Those sites are run and written by religious and malicious liars who attempt to pass off a full-term baby as an 'aborted foetus' with all the gory pictures added to manipulate the gullible and the easily lead. The fact is, apart from the gross distortions and lies passed off by that 'site', is that the vast overwhelming majority of abortions are performed when the FOETUS (not 'unborn child') is no bigger than a pinprick and doesn't resemble anything but a microscopic clot of blood. I've seen all the filthy LIES from these sites, and seen and heard all the tricks in their never-ending string of dirty and manipulative tricks. The fact of the matter is, when the overwhelming majority of abortions are done between 10 and 20 weeks, the FOETUS is only as pig as a pinprick and has zero resemblance to anything other than a spot. To even suggest killing a 10 year old born fully formed, functional human being to a microscopic 10 week dot, is insulting to the poster themselves at best, and sheer desperation at worst.

But I think a foetus is more of a child than a sperm. A foetus has already been fertilised, whereas a sperm can't do anything without being fertilised. Besides, when people have sex, it's not just one sperm that's produced - there's quite a few. But there's only one foetus.

I didn't actually say they'd 'adjust' to the 'likeness'. All I actually said was that it is not unheard of for a mother to be able to bond with a child, even one produced by rape. It astounds me that you can call it a 'bad seed'. How on earth is its conception the child's fault? If you're a woman who's been raped, then I'm very sorry you had to go through that, and while I'm not condemning you as an individual based on your choice, I think it's a gross generalisation to say that no 'normal' woman would keep the baby, and a betrayal of the sisterhood? Why? Everyone talks about how abortion's the woman's choice because it's the woman's body, so I don't get what it's got to do with the female sex at large.

Foetus at 12 weeks and it definitely looks like a baby to me.

[-Kevin-]

Its not right to compare a foetus to a sperm and say whats the difference.

Firstly a foetus has got a beating HEART which begins to beat only days after conception. When a heart is formed that indicates to me that a life has begun, theres no 2 ways about it , its the beginning of a human life.

and what you have said about disabled people don't have the right to life is utterly shocking. Who says that a disabled person shouldn't live ? Every human being has the right to life , sadly a human life doesn't have the right to his/her own life while its inside the mothers womb.It can be cut out and dismembered at the mothers discretion up to almost 24 weeks.

Apparently over 90% of all pregnancies in the UK that are diagnosed as having a disability ie Downs Syndrome , Spina Bifida are aborted. I think thats quite a shocking figure. I am so happy that here in Ireland , it doesn't allow abortion and I read its the only country in Europe where abortion is illegal.

I could go on and on about my views on abortion and how its 99% wrong all night if I had to.

[thelonius]

Abortion is a basic human, and civil right. When its the womans body that is the host, it is the woman's business. And I think myself, for women to be anti-choice, is the biggest and most unforgiveable betrayal of all to your own gender.

Another thing is where the baby is deformed or will be born with a syndrome, such as Down. Why bring a person like that out into the world, to drain our Disability and respite sources, which will need someone to look after them for the rest of their lives? And who takes over after the parents pass on? The siblings, who have their lives changes because of their PARENTS' decision? An institution? If you give birth to a child knowing full well that child will need care for their entire lives, then pay for it yourself, 100%, I say. Don't use welfare or Disability or respite. After all, you had the CHOICE. Why should the taxpayer pay for your choice? Why should their siblings have to sacrifice their lives to take up the burden once you have passed?

Like others I am so shocked at your statements. I just can't comprehend that these types of views still exist nowadays. I've posted my views on abortion and I am completely pro-choice. You say that for women to be anti-choice it is a betrayal, but I don't think you understand the concept of choice if you will demonise women who will avoid an abortion where you believe you would have one if you were in their position. Not having an abortion is also a choice.

Saying that no 'normal' woman would keep a baby through rape is just a generalisation and an attack on those 'abnormal' women who decide they can love their child regardless of how they were conceived. It's not getting over the rape, its just not placing blame of rape on the child who did nothing wrong.

Where is the choice you speak so highly about when you cannot accept that some women choose to have a baby whether they will be disabled or are a product of rape? Saying that they are manipulated or guilted into doing so - even though that may be true in some instances - is an insult to their decision making and their own free will.

I agree, abortions are necessary. But they should also be avoided if they can be. For those who do not have them, they have every right not to. Just as those who do have every right to do so.

[Cal]

Its not right to compare a foetus to a sperm and say whats the difference.

Firstly a foetus has got a beating HEART which begins to beat only days after conception. When a heart is formed that indicates to me that a life has begun, theres no 2 ways about it , its the beginning of a human life.

and what you have said about disabled people don't have the right to life is utterly shocking. Who says that a disabled person shouldn't live ? Every human being has the right to life , sadly a human life doesn't have the right to his/her own life while its inside the mothers womb.It can be cut out and dismembered at the mothers discretion up to almost 24 weeks.

Apparently over 90% of all pregnancies in the UK that are diagnosed as having a disability ie Downs Syndrome , Spina Bifida are aborted. I think thats quite a shocking figure. I am so happy that here in Ireland , it doesn't allow abortion and I read its the only country in Europe where abortion is illegal.

I could go on and on about my views on abortion and how its 99% wrong all night if I had to.

A foetus isn't a foetus until 8 weeks after conception. Not long before that it's a bunch of cells which, to my knowledge, cannot have a beating heart. A heart has to be formed in order for it to beat.

And I don't think it should be illegal here. Ireland's abortion status is: "Illegal with exception for rape, maternal life, health, and/or mental health". So it still happens, and it's still abortion. I don't know about you, but I find it worrying that it's more-or-less illegal here whilst it is completely legal in Russia - a country whose human rights record is pretty dismal to say the least.

[-Kevin-]

Its not right to compare a foetus to a sperm and say whats the difference.

Firstly a foetus has got a beating HEART which begins to beat only days after conception. When a heart is formed that indicates to me that a life has begun, theres no 2 ways about it , its the beginning of a human life.

and what you have said about disabled people don't have the right to life is utterly shocking. Who says that a disabled person shouldn't live ? Every human being has the right to life , sadly a human life doesn't have the right to his/her own life while its inside the mothers womb.It can be cut out and dismembered at the mothers discretion up to almost 24 weeks.

Apparently over 90% of all pregnancies in the UK that are diagnosed as having a disability ie Downs Syndrome , Spina Bifida are aborted. I think thats quite a shocking figure. I am so happy that here in Ireland , it doesn't allow abortion and I read its the only country in Europe where abortion is illegal.

I could go on and on about my views on abortion and how its 99% wrong all night if I had to.

A foetus isn't a foetus until 8 weeks after conception. Not long before that it's a bunch of cells which, to my knowledge, cannot have a beating heart. A heart has to be formed in order for it to beat.

And I don't think it should be illegal here. Ireland's abortion status is: "Illegal with exception for rape, maternal life, health, and/or mental health". So it still happens, and it's still abortion. I don't know about you, but I find it worrying that it's more-or-less illegal here whilst it is completely legal in Russia - a country whose human rights record is pretty dismal to say the least.

A baby's heart begins to beat 18 days from conception, and by 21 days the heart is pumping blood through a closed circulatory system.

When does life begin?

Biology is crystal clear that at the moment of conception (also known as fertilization), a unique, organism comes into existence. Since this new life possesses human DNA and is the offspring of human parents, it can legitimately only be described as human life.

Since there can be no question that human zygotes, embryos and fetuses are alive, some have attempted to claim that human beings are not "persons," until some threshold is crossed, such as viability, the capacity to feel pain, birth, or even the first year after birth. The merits of such notions can be debated, but it should be clear that they are not based on science but rather on ideology, philosophy or belief.

As far as observable science is concerned, human life begins at conception.

When can the unborn child's brain waves be detected?

A baby's brainwaves can be detected at 6 weeks from conception.

When can the unborn child feel pain?

By 9 weeks from conception, all the structures necessary for pain sensation are functioning.

[Cal]

That's extremely misleading. It's not fully formed until weeks later. The beats are so faint you can hardly hear them until a woman gets an early ultrasound (that's about 7 or 8 weeks in). It takes 18 days for the heart to begin functioning, it still has weeks to develop (e.g providing oxygenated blood to the liver etc.), not "only days after conception" like you said yourself.

And it's still not a foetus until 8 weeks, so I don't see how it's suddenly a "baby" at 6 weeks. That's utterly bizarre. And while we are at it, if biology is "crystal clear" then how are babies one day old the day after their mother gives birth? Surely if it's so damn "clear" then the logical, scientific thing to do is date baby's age's from when their life began, and not from when they are out of the womb?

It's extremely selective. Pro-life campaigner's have no right to tell a woman how to live her life. Hell, you might as well legalize human trafficking while you're at it.

[Jess]

It's extremely selective. Pro-life campaigners have no right to tell a woman how to live her life. Hell, you might as well legalize human trafficking while you're at it.

I agree that pro-life campaigners have 'no right' to do that but neither do pro-abortionists. Whether or not life biologically begins at x weeks is irrevelant when some women do already feel bonded with their unborn child when they discover they're pregnant.

So if you say it's not a foetus 'til eight weeks gestation, then no abortion after eight weeks?